Bridging: A Game Mechanic made bannable?

I would like to say that I already had this conversation with Eagle a month ago when he approved of this mechanic, I was lead to believe he posted the following thread in the mod forum and there was a decision made by the staff about it considering he asked me to make this. Now obviously that did not happen considering the mods are again claiming this is bannable, so let me publicly post my logical breakdown of this mechanic so we can put it to rest once and for all. If you have any questions or need elaboration, please leave a comment below politely explaining what you need clarification on and I'll be more than happy to go into further detail. And for the record again: I'm not supporting xBugs here, just because he used Bridging doesn't mean he invented it. It's a shame he was the sole reason this was banned, but nonetheless: Enjoy.

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I'm sure you're all very aware of one of the (many) reasons xBugs was banned back in January, that being the so-called "Submarine Transport Glitch". In my decade-long study of AtWar, I've personally come across many weird exploits-turned-mechanics over time, the most prevalent being Turnblocking. In the same vein of exploration, I recently watched one of xBugs' old Youtube videos on the subject of the Sub Glitch to see what he really did and if it was an abused bug after all. While I cannot comment on the structure of xBugs' character or his decision to spam alts on the forum/post Mod forum SSs publicly, I do want to state my case as thus: xBugs did no harm and was not wrong in utilizing a Submarine unit to transfer his units into the United Kingdom. I will explain thoroughly the mechanics involved in this move, how they are done/why, and how it is a completely valid and legal move. Also a prior warning: All moves done in the follow .gifs were done in a private Casual game of my making and are intended for demonstration purposes only. I do not condone anyone make these moves in an actual competitive game until we come to a consensus on the legality of this new mechanic: Bridging.

First, we have to analyze what Bridging is as a mechanic, I will try to define it as accurately as I can here: Bridging is the act of merging a stack of Land Unit(s) into a Stack of Naval Unit(s) over a short body of water in order to form a pathway to another adjacent landform. As far as I'm aware, this can only be done in places as small as the English Channel at Dover-Calais. I've successfully done it with a Transport between Stockholm-Alands, Karelia-Archangelsk, and Glasgow-Belfast however. I'm sure you can do it in a million more places. Back to the point: Bridging is already utilized by most every competent competitive player, especially PD United Kingdom players transferring their units from the British Isles into mainland Europe.

The problem arises however when people confuse Merging and Transporting, two separate aspects of gameplay. Some people argued that it was a glitch because xBugs was "Transporting Infantry in a Submarine, which should not be possible". In using xBugs' method, you are not transporting anything at all, you are merely merging your stacks together. I can prove there is not Transportation happening by attempting to move the stack as a whole- which should imperatively work if they are indeed being Transported- and only the Submarine moving due to the fact it cannot Transport anything sans Marines. Demonstration below:



Now tell me after viewing that, how is it any different whatsoever than the Sea Transport model everyone already uses?:



No Transport is occurring here, all you are witnessing is the Bridging of units via Stack Merging. This is the same pseudo-mechanic you use when unloading your Transported units without mooring the ship first. You can do this same sort of Bridging with a Destroyer as well in a pinch. The three units you can possibly Bridge with are: Transports, Destroyers, and Submarines. No other unit seems to work, perhaps if we have more naval units then the list would be longer. I even tried it with an Air Trans to see if the Transportation argument held any water:



No such luck occurred.

Oh, and before you say "A boat isn't logically long enough to walk across the English Channel with!", I should point out two things: The real life equivalent to these units in terms of quantity is vague as it currently stands, considering 1 Infantry unit is labelled "Infantry"; How many of them? 2? 7? 4000? The same goes for most units in this game with pluralized naming conventions. Now, you may also say "It's not logically and/or realistic to use boats as an effective means to transport ground-based military units, this could never happen in real life!" let me introduce you to Xerxes I of Persia, who did just that in 480 BC:

Should be allowed. A submarine and destroyer can carry people on top of it for short a duration of time.

I guess whoever mentioned it never saw a submarine or a destroyer.

Guys it is very simple. The fact that you are trying to prove this isn't transportation, while you literally manage to get your troops from one land to another by bypassing water is interesting.

Let me get one thing straight. Merging is when you combine two or more stacks. Now if those stacks can or can't be moved afterwards affects nothing. That is merging at its finest. Now after you have merged, if that new stack is able to move with sea transports or air transport it's a whole other thing.

On the other hand what do we call transportation? When you are taken by one place to another with the help of a transporter. In our game this transporter will either be a sea or air transport for any kind of soldier or tank, or it will be a submarine for marines only.

If you add up the 2 definitions from above, you will receive solid proof that when you go from uk to france in any way, it is still transportation. Now when is it acceptable and when isn't it you will ask me. Couldn't be more simple than this. The game has units for each category. That may be ground main attack or air main attack orrrr.... wait for it..... transportation! If you do not use any known transport, does it make sense that your troops are travelling from UK to France? I agree with you.. no. Use any known transport and you'll be fine.

There will be those who will of course mention zoom bug and it's whole role in this bug, whom I won't blame for thinking of this. It is well known that zoom bug used to be a mistake in the game's code, however during the transition to html5 from SL it was added intentionally. So zoom bug is what makes this particular bug possible. Why isn't acceptable then? Because the only reason anyone wanted zoom bug was to make it easier to reach a city if you had a very small distance to cover. Concluding, it was never an intention to invent a bug where people can use submarines or destroyers or bombers to cross sea or lake or anything.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

Guys it is very simple. The fact that you are trying to prove this isn't transportation, while you literally manage to get your troops from one land to another by bypassing water is interesting.

Let me get one thing straight. Merging is when you combine two or more stacks. Now if those stacks can or can't be moved afterwards affects nothing. That is merging at its finest. Now after you have merged, if that new stack is able to move with sea transports or air transport it's a whole other thing.

On the other hand what do we call transportation? When you are taken by one place to another with the help of a transporter. In our game this transporter will either be a sea or air transport for any kind of soldier or tank, or it will be a submarine for marines only.

If you add up the 2 definitions from above, you will receive solid proof that when you go from uk to france in any way, it is still transportation. Now when is it acceptable and when isn't it you will ask me. Couldn't be more simple than this. The game has units for each category. That may be ground main attack or air main attack orrrr.... wait for it..... transportation! If you do not use any known transport, does it make sense that your troops are travelling from UK to France? I agree with you.. no. Use any known transport and you'll be fine.

There will be those who will of course mention zoom bug and it's whole role in this bug, whom I won't blame for thinking of this. It is well known that zoom bug used to be a mistake in the game's code, however during the transition to html5 from SL it was added intentionally. So zoom bug is what makes this particular bug possible. Why isn't acceptable then? Because the only reason anyone wanted zoom bug was to make it easier to reach a city if you had a very small distance to cover. Concluding, it was never an intention to invent a bug where people can use submarines or destroyers or bombers to cross sea or lake or anything.

Your entire argument is absurd. If trespassing a body of water with internal game mechanics is "bannable" then I guess
should also be bannable? Moreover, this has been used ever since AtWar's release, and is a part of the game. You're the only person trying to push this idea through. Don't force your opinion down people's throats and threaten to ban them for something that has been a part of this game for years.

Wr1tt3n by smegma lover, 01.02.2020 at 09:20

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Jesus christ. The picture clearly shows people standing on top of it, while it is stationary for ceremonial purposes, NOT sailing through the fucking Atlantic. I have no bloody words....

I'm reposting this from the other thread... this matter should be resolved shortly:

Wr1tt3n by Garde, 01.02.2020 at 08:21

Wr1tt3n by Kaska, 01.02.2020 at 03:03

....
..... Bridging with any naval units shouldn't be OK if it is considered so.

Wr1tt3n by Garde, 01.02.2020 at 00:09

Wr1tt3n by PleaseMe, 31.01.2020 at 23:52

Wr1tt3n by Xenomega, 31.01.2020 at 23:18

So to be clear I can use subs to bridge?

I think so?

Subs, Destroyers... any Naval unit.

I highly disagree with that

.....

Is you want to disallow this, then it becomes a slippery slope where every mechanic in line with this becomes irrelevant through banning. That is not a game I would want to play, let alone contribute to.

Just to clarify, the issue with sub-bridging was not an acceptable exploit at the time, as it was not common knowledge.

The mods created a list of 'acceptable' exploits, but it was never posted to the community as mods were still weren't 100% in agreement on some details.. Because no mods had an issue with the sub issue becoming an acceptable exploit, i can see why Eagle and other mods would say it's allowed... but since the list was never made public, technically it would still be an exploit that isn't allowed, and subject to review if reported to mods...

To solve this:

i've re-posted in mod forum, and will give a couple days for mods/admin to respond, but hopefully we will have an official list of exploits posted for all players shortly (2 days maybe?)...

Stay tune ♥

Wr1tt3n by Wheelo, 01.02.2020 at 10:40

Wr1tt3n by smegma lover, 01.02.2020 at 09:20

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Jesus christ. The picture clearly shows people standing on top of it, while it is stationary for ceremonial purposes, NOT sailing through the fucking Atlantic. I have no bloody words....

Sad you have to exaggerate words to make me look bad. I did say "a short duration." For example, I watched a documentary about submarines where soldiers were crossing the bay standing on top of it.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

If you add up the 2 definitions from above, you will receive solid proof that when you go from uk to france in any way, it is still transportation. Now when is it acceptable and when isn't it you will ask me. Couldn't be more simple than this. The game has units for each category. That may be ground main attack or air main attack orrrr.... wait for it..... transportation! If you do not use any known transport, does it make sense that your troops are travelling from UK to France? I agree with you.. no. Use any known transport and you'll be fine.

thats why we call it mechanic you don't know how transport mechanic works
A transport unit carrying a number of other units within the scope of its capacity limitation transportation is move to X from Y
Bridging you have 1 stack using 1 naval unit to pass through water thats not transportation because no unit move the stack.
Maybe if you knew how to bridge you wouldn't say its transportation bro

Wr1tt3n by Froyer, 01.02.2020 at 11:14

thats why we call it mechanic you don't know how transport mechanic works
A transport unit carrying a number of other units within the scope of its capacity limitation transportation is move to X from Y
Bridging you have 1 stack using 1 naval unit to pass through water thats not transportation because no unit move the stack.
Maybe if you knew how to bridge you wouldn't say its transportation bro

Sadly for you "bridging" isn't something difficult to do and I certainly know how to do it. However I choose not to use it since it's a bug.

Out of all my previous post you didn't answer a thing. " Oh, it's not transportation cause you don't actually move them! It's... it's.... wait I'll find it... bridging! "

If we are to name any bug or new random move and say it's something different then we may as well call this place utopia.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 11:23

Wr1tt3n by Froyer, 01.02.2020 at 11:14

thats why we call it mechanic you don't know how transport mechanic works
A transport unit carrying a number of other units within the scope of its capacity limitation transportation is move to X from Y
Bridging you have 1 stack using 1 naval unit to pass through water thats not transportation because no unit move the stack.
Maybe if you knew how to bridge you wouldn't say its transportation bro

Sadly for you "bridging" isn't something difficult to do and I certainly know how to do it. However I choose not to use it since it's a bug.

Out of all my previous post you didn't answer a thing. " Oh, it's not transportation cause you don't actually move them! It's... it's.... wait I'll find it... bridging! "

If we are to name any bug or new random move and say it's something different then we may as well call this place utopia.

Pls stop why do u want to ban this "bug" when u can make it a mechanic and improve the gameplay?

Wr1tt3n by Froyer, 01.02.2020 at 12:24

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 11:23

Wr1tt3n by Froyer, 01.02.2020 at 11:14

thats why we call it mechanic you don't know how transport mechanic works
A transport unit carrying a number of other units within the scope of its capacity limitation transportation is move to X from Y
Bridging you have 1 stack using 1 naval unit to pass through water thats not transportation because no unit move the stack.
Maybe if you knew how to bridge you wouldn't say its transportation bro

Sadly for you "bridging" isn't something difficult to do and I certainly know how to do it. However I choose not to use it since it's a bug.

Out of all my previous post you didn't answer a thing. " Oh, it's not transportation cause you don't actually move them! It's... it's.... wait I'll find it... bridging! "

If we are to name any bug or new random move and say it's something different then we may as well call this place utopia.

Pls stop why do u want to ban this "bug" when u can make it a mechanic and improve the gameplay?

Most bugs become feature after certain time. Like he mentioned zoombug

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

Guys it is very simple. The fact that you are trying to prove this isn't transportation, while you literally manage to get your troops from one land to another by bypassing water is interesting.

Is a footbridge transporting my corporeal being whenever I walk across it? Transport: To take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

Let me get one thing straight. Merging is when you combine two or more stacks.

Correct.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

Now if those stacks can or can't be moved afterwards affects nothing. That is merging at its finest. Now after you have merged, if that new stack is able to move with sea transports or air transport it's a whole other thing.

Wrong; My example was an experiment to test the hypothesis of Submarines being considered a Transporter by the engine when doing this. In this instance, they cannot transport anything because they can only transport Marines. Therefore when I attempt to move the stack in a transporting fashion, only the Submarine moves. Logically speaking: There is no transport occurring here. The most you could say is that Magnetism mechanics are at play here when merging because Submarines have a positive Capacity value, which still does not translate into transportation.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

On the other hand what do we call transportation? When you are taken by one place to another with the help of a transporter. In our game this transporter will either be a sea or air transport for any kind of soldier or tank, or it will be a submarine for marines only.

You missed the part where an official statistic- Capacity, as well as Unique Capacity- is paramount in considering a proper Transport movement. A Destroyer outside of Naval Commander is not a Transporter unit... yet I can bridge with it. This lends credence to my theory that units are not being transported. Now I'm not receiving unique "help" from units with positive Capacity values, as evidenced by my ability to do this with a Destroyer. Hell, Zoe even claims that she can do it with Bombers; I haven't had that kind of luck myself, but I'm sure it can be done in some places. The only constant thread in terms of issues I have is that Destroyers will only let me merge under special circumstances, including being moored. I've had it work both ways though, so this would need to be experimented with more.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

If you add up the 2 definitions from above, you will receive solid proof that when you go from uk to france in any way, it is still transportation.

Your definitions are inherently flawed due to your lack of understanding in regards to logically analyzing the movements and mechanics at play, as well as your inability to understand the principle(s) behind how a bridge operates. I defined Transportation in my OP based off of the in-game engine, use that.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

Now when is it acceptable and when isn't it you will ask me. Couldn't be more simple than this. The game has units for each category. That may be ground main attack or air main attack orrrr.... wait for it..... transportation! If you do not use any known transport, does it make sense that your troops are travelling from UK to France? I agree with you.. no. Use any known transport and you'll be fine.

This argument is based upon your flawed analysis of this mechanic, so I will skip over it.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

There will be those who will of course mention zoom bug and it's whole role in this bug, whom I won't blame for thinking of this. It is well known that zoom bug used to be a mistake in the game's code, however during the transition to html5 from SL it was added intentionally. So zoom bug is what makes this particular bug possible. Why isn't acceptable then? Because the only reason anyone wanted zoom bug was to make it easier to reach a city if you had a very small distance to cover.

Your claim here is that those active during the HTML5 development only wished to have the Zoombug based on the premise of utilizing Magnetism in capturing cities. Things change over time, but I would like some shred of evidence of this being the case. The Zoombug is used for so many more things than just capturing cities- it's unfavorable to completely disregard whole concepts like Rangemaxing and Laddering that are only possible with the Zoombug. Most of the high-level play in this game revolves around utilizing this mechanic to your advantage, so to define it so thusly and without nuance is regrettable.

Wr1tt3n by Cold Case, 01.02.2020 at 10:07

Concluding, it was never an intention to invent a bug where people can use submarines or destroyers or bombers to cross sea or lake or anything.

Neither was Turnblocking when I first discovered it in April 2011, or when Ironail perfected it and discovered Flower Power, or when other players gradually discovered all of the various shortcuts in the map, or how to properly manage movement priority to favor certain outcomes, or how players discovered you can force units into a city via reverse magnetism. This game- like every other major competitive video game- is built upon these optimizations of engine mechanics to achieve the best outcome imaginable. It's what keeps these games fresh, and raises the skill ceiling over time to allow new competition to flow in and for the extremely intrepid to rise higher.

Bridging is a fair mechanic.

Its a game mechanic, if its not allowed make it impossible. This is simple.

Personally I don't think it's fair and I feel like it's going to cause more harm than good. Now you have these invisible transports that you cannot destroy because they are hidden. Seems annoying. We are better off adding real invisible transports as actual ingame units that way more people can utilize it. Not everyone knows of a bug mechanic. A lot of low ranks will wonder how exactly you got from Uk to France without any sort of transportation. Just seems annoying honestly.

Seems like a fair mechanic to me imo. I probably wouldn't ever use it but it seems fair.

If that's the reason we banned xBugs then we have 100 other reasons we can use to keep him banned.

Wr1tt3n by PleaseMe, 01.02.2020 at 22:52

Personally I don't think it's fair and I feel like it's going to cause more harm than good. Now you have these invisible transports that you cannot destroy because they are hidden. Seems annoying. We are better off adding real invisible transports as actual ingame units that way more people can utilize it. Not everyone knows of a bug mechanic. A lot of low ranks will wonder how exactly you got from Uk to France without any sort of transportation. Just seems annoying honestly.

Bro u don't transport units when u guys will understand lol and most of the time u bridge with a naval trans cuz ur trans don't lose range when u do this shit bridging with a sub is good when u need +1 range or if u want to save money

Stop trying to justify cheating, its literally a submarine, use it for stealth units only...

Wr1tt3n by PleaseMe, 01.02.2020 at 22:52

Personally I don't think it's fair and I feel like it's going to cause more harm than good. Now you have these invisible transports that you cannot destroy because they are hidden. Seems annoying. We are better off adding real invisible transports as actual ingame units that way more people can utilize it. Not everyone knows of a bug mechanic. A lot of low ranks will wonder how exactly you got from Uk to France without any sort of transportation. Just seems annoying honestly.

The logical conclusion from your argument is to remove Submarines in general then, since I can transport massive amounts of Marines with them already if I wanted to in most gametypes. Right now, I already receive questions when I bridge with NT or ladder into weird places like Minsk or Moscow; This hardly seems much different from a conceptual perspective, being another tenet of the overall skill of Rangemaxing.

Now the issue that seems to be most prevalent here is the concept of Stealth in general; It's fairly foreign to most competitive players who don't dabble in other gametypes, and for good reason: From a tactical perspective, they cost far too much for what they're worth in great numbers. Subs have always been an uncommon luxury used to pull off some unexpected moves (T2 Ukraine grabbing Greece; T2 Germany raiding UK cities, etc), but never quite widespread in usage, and hence Stealth as an archetype has mostly been non-existent in competitive. In other gametypes however, it is still extremely common, and even a staple in many popular scenarios.

Now it is indeed the Stealth factor that seems to put most competitive players off, which is completely understandable considering the nature of those types of units and how infrequently they're used in the scene, *especially* Submarines (We like to forget Stealth Bombers exist, because they're absolutely atrocious units). I personally do want to change this in the future with new strategies and buffs to Stealth in general so that more unique playstyles and options can emerge from the community. I actually prefer playing World games now because you see more variety there, and I think bringing some of that into competitive could put more life into the mostly dying scene. That being said, there needs to be checks for this kind of change like anything else, but nonetheless I do believe allowing Sub Bridging is the first great step in doing so and will raise the skill ceiling for those at the top, and give more options for everyone else.

I think the most practical thing to do here is lowering the cost of Sentry Planes and going forward with the plan Witch Doctor, Lelouch, and myself had some six months ago to rebrand them as Drones instead, the cheaper associated cost being a caveat of that. Giving the, a secondary usage of some sort will be necessary if their stats cannot make up for a cost of 80-140. This way however, we can invest time into revitalizing global Stealth unit functionality and strategies based around Stealth as an archetype as well; I see Submarine Bridging as a catalyst for this.

Bridging is no different than using Shortcuts, but it requires more map knowledge, units, and time to pull off. On top of this, I think having two effective land lanes into the UK/Europe across the English channel with this method will prove exceptionally fun and a good soft nerf to UK and a good buff to France (yes, you can go from Normandy to the Isle of Wight). Not only this, but there's a million bridges existing in Scandi right now; I can go from Umea into Finland; Northern Germany straight into Sweden; etc. Seawalls will become an actual thing with this mechanic. All in all, Bridging adds more depth, variety, and skill to gameplay, and I see no logical reason not to have it other than "Not being able to see my opponent's trans sucks", hence my solution: Buff Sentries to death by making them cheaper Drones with a little less range (New unit instead perhaps? Sentries aren't used too much nowadays IRL, hence my wishing to replace them entirely and making Sentries a rare unit or something) and Stealth problem solved. Gameplay needs a new evolution, it's been years since our last major change in the form of City Bonuses (2015? 2016?), so now would be a good time for a shift I believe.

I should also mention: Bridging without a sub for regular units is inherently powerful, but most people aren't aware of its existence outside of Dover-Calais. I think for now we can all agree that it is fine to bridge any unit with a NT, and that Sub Bridging is fine with Marines. If we can at least get an official confirmation on that- since before even that was considered bannable by some- I can live with that while we do more research and debate on the merits of using Subs on non-stealth units. I don't think anyone is protesting using Destroyers either.

It must be a great feeling to go to sleep at night knowing you need to cheat at an online browser game in order to win games.

Wr1tt3n by Augustus Caesar, 02.02.2020 at 19:21

It must be a great feeling to go to sleep at night knowing you need to cheat at an online browser game in order to win games.

Yes I sleep like a baby each night

Wr1tt3n by Augustus Caesar, 02.02.2020 at 19:21

It must be a great feeling to go to sleep at night knowing you need to cheat at an online browser game in order to win games.

"cheat" why u think it's cheating same thing with nic u guys come here just say it's cheating without argument

Resolved

https://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=43501

Wr1tt3n by Froyer, 02.02.2020 at 23:51

"cheat" why u think it's cheating same thing with nic u guys come here just say it's cheating without argument

Because it is the result of a glitch in the coding, it's not suppose to be able to happen therefore it is an exploit. You are lucky though as it's been allowed, not surprising since there's known cheaters near the top in competitive who are left alone anyway.

Wr1tt3n by Augustus Caesar, 03.02.2020 at 05:37

Wr1tt3n by Froyer, 02.02.2020 at 23:51

"cheat" why u think it's cheating same thing with nic u guys come here just say it's cheating without argument

Because it is the result of a glitch in the coding, it's not suppose to be able to happen therefore it is an exploit. You are lucky though as it's been allowed, not surprising since there's known cheaters near the top in competitive who are left alone anyway.

Top competitive players always try to find new thing to be the best what's wrong with that ? Sometimes it's bugs like bridging sometimes it's new expansion