My opinion and solution to "Cold death of the competitive scene"

This is my personal opinion and does not represent anybody. I may have missed some things from the original thread, I do apologize.

While I have been eating popcorn and watching the entertainment that is the "Cold death of the competitive scene" thread, I've also formed some opinions/solutions I think we can work towards to increasing the amount of competitive players or just the amount of players in general. Furthermore, I'm posting this in a new thread because I think that the previous thread has become a place where flaming piles of shitposts fly around.

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A look at both sides

• njab's opinion is that the competitive scene is declining. While I don't particularly understand how his third and fourth points will directly increase the amount of competitive players, his solutions are:
  
  (1) Incorporate scenario into comp, for example fixing scenario cws
  (2) Expanding the normally and most played comp map of eu+ into other places in the rest of the world map or even other maps.
  (3) Allowing map mods (Not quite sure on how this will directly affect the number of competitive players either, but it does relate to my solution)
  
  
• On the other hand, players like Croat have come up with statistics that support the competitive scene actually increasing in number, in particular the number of cws played. Others (or was it Croat again) have mentioned that it is purely the seasonal nature of the game and old players often go inactive but come back. More others have mentioned that the difficulty involved in playing other maps outside eu+ is that there currently aren't any map that are as balanced.
  

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My opinion

(I'm basing my opinion off Gigi, who quotes Dave that the amount of yearly players has gone down and is at an all-time-low) It is my opinion, and only my personal one, that competitive isn't as widespread as it once was. That being said, I don't feel confident saying that incorporating scenario will greatly impact the amount of competitive players. Obviously, having scenario cws would allow scenario clans to compete for elo; but isn't it at the same time just calling a group of players by another name? What used to be scenario players are now "competitive" scenario players.
I'm also not against playing competitive on maps outside of eu+, but I also think for the atWar competitive culture, eu+ is the most conventional map. I don't think a lot of people would be against others playing for elo in maps outside of eu, but people want to play what they have the most experience in and are best at. For most competitive players, that map is eu.

So what is the root of the problem? First of all, in regards to what njab posted, I agree that the entry bar to competitive is high - ie, high ranked competitive. I think we can all agree that to shine in competitive you need quite a lot of experience. But I think this is also the inherent nature of competitive and being a competitive player - which here I define as someone who plays a relatively high amount of duels. Every player has the ability to compete for elo, but obviously not everyone can be the best. Thus, most are simply content playing a couple duels here and there. I think that if we were to "increase the amount of competitive players", we couldn't call most of them "competitive" players according to my definition. But isn't this an aspect of every "competitive" game? We can't all be Global Elites here.

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My solution and afterthoughts

My second point in regards to the root of the problem ties to my solution so I'm explaining it here. atWar isn't a big game, it never has been. Back in 2012, when we were all kids and probably didn't have access to money, playing an online browser strategy game was appealing. It's now been 7 years, and many have grown, gone to school, graduated from school, begun their own families ,etc. Quite obviously, many have responsibilities that require them to move on from the game, or they've simply grown less fond of the game after 7 years. With that said, it should be clear why there may be more older competitive players becoming inactive than those becoming active again. Furthermore, there are so many free games nowadays that are so much more popular and appealing; browser games just aren't as popular anymore. As a result, the amount of newer players just isn't as high as it used to be. (According to Gigi quoting Dave).

So what can we do?

I've thought about it for a while and come up with a couple steps I believe can lead us in the right direction. They're not as concrete as I'd like them to be but I've yet to come up with better ones.

• I agree with njab in regards to scenario cws/duels. I don't think this will bring any negative impact at all, and instead can give scenario players a chance to compete for elo and rankings as the best scenario players.
  
• Introduce new players to the elo system and competitive scene early, for example through the tutorial. Perhaps there are those that want to rise to the top but don't even know about it?
  
• But instead of focusing on small little changes and bandages, perhaps it's time we focus on the bigger picture? Since browser games just aren't as popular anymore, maybe the solution would be to follow the many topics in the suggestion thread asking for a Steam port or at least something that people can discover on a popular game platform? I do understand that this "solution" is a high risk one financially and would require a massive amount of time investment. (I'm a programmer myself so I know). That being said, I personally think that this is the direction the game should move in. Having the game not simply be browser based and on Steam, for example, can not only attract more players as a downloadable online game, but also resolve njab's idea of mods. For the first time, we could make mods for atWar!
  

In any case, I would like to thank you for reading this far if you did. There's always going to be a special place in my heart for atWar. I'm sure we all want atWar to succeed, so please stop turning threads like these into flamewars. While there is truth in everything, I cannot comprehend how talking about someone's political views, or who got banned even related to the thread. Furthermore, they are not constructive but obstructive. We all want atWar to grow right? Then be nice and be constructive.

The main thread has really gotten out of hand, so I think I'll use this thread instead to share my thoughts. Here goes...

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1) Fixing scenario cws.

Yes. I don't know why this wasn't done before, or if it was just an oversight. Maybe once I get into the code I'll find some "gotcha" reason why it wasn't done before, but at this point I really can't think of any reason not to do it. Waffel already opened a bug report about this, so it's on my list now.

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2) Playing comp on other maps than eu.

That's up to the community... it's not for me to tell you which maps to use or not use. However I do think the UI for starting a new game and choosing the map is clunky. If we had a better interface where it was easier to choose a map from the full library of maps, and not just the ones in the dropdown, then maybe more people (especially newer players) would try different ones. Anyway it's something I'm thinking about, I don't have any concrete plans for it yet, just an idea.

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3) Scenario mods

Okay get your popcorn ready for the flame war that's sure to ensue after I say what I'm about to say.

Here's my decision on appointing a "scenario mod": no. We are not going to have "scenario mods" or "competitive mods" here at atWar. We just have mods. Period.

Now let me explain how I arrived at this decision. When I first came on board, immediately I got a lot of messages from people explaining how atWar is divided into different communities, etc. The_Empirezz in particular made an impassioned case for the "scenario community", and among other things expressed his wish to see "scenario mods" appointed. Several names of potential mods were recommended.

At first I took all this very seriously. I tried really hard to find an acceptable scenario mod or mods. Many discussions were had with mod team and others. Without getting into too many specifics or naming names, we just couldn't find an acceptable candidate. Some names were ruled out for good reasons. A couple other names we kept on the back burner because they don't participate enough in the community for us to judge whether they would be good or bad. One person we DID ask if they wanted to be "scenario mod"... turned it down. So at that point we said, "okay, lets just wait and see. Maybe in a few months someone else will pop up on our radar." That's where we left the conversation.

Since then, however, I keep thinking about this whole issue of divided communities. The more I think about it, the more I believe we should be working to REDUCE the divisiveness... not encourage it. The whole idea of "here are some mods for this community" and "here are some other mods for that community" ... would just be encouraging everyone to retreat into their respective corners. I'm not going to do that.

We have a game which can be played and enjoyed in different ways. That's great, we've got something for everyone. The role of moderators is not to "represent" the interests of one type of game play against another. Our mods are here to help ALL atWar players, regardless of the particular way you choose to play the game.

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4) Puf's point about small little changes and bandages vs something big like a Steam port

I'll tell you a dirty little secret. (Which won't be much of a secret anymore since I'm posting it here in the forums!)

The secret is this: small little changes and bandages is all I've been doing since I started here. Because it's all I have time for at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I've been trying hard to put time in so people don't lose hope... and I have put a good amount of time in, between talking with people, and making the small changes and fixes here and there. I'm trying to show that progress is beginning to happen, which it is.

However... I have absolutely no time for big stuff right now. And this is 100% because of me. I've been working on a major IRL project which was *supposed* to launch back in November... here we are almost February and it's still not done! (Long story why that is, I won't bore you with it.) Anyway, every waking moment that I'm not here on atWar, I'm working on that project. Whenever I get tired of coding my other project I take a break and see what I can do with atWar.

So anyway, once I get this other project finally done I'll have a lot more time for atWar. Just not right now. (Hope that doesn't disappoint you all too badly... I'm doing the best I can.)

As for Steam... yes I think this is a good idea. It's a big project and would take significant time to accomplish, but I'm totally open to doing it. As I've said before, to do something like that would basically require 1) creating a single-player/offline gameplay option (i.e. playing against the computer/bots), 2) updating our server infrastructure to accommodate multiplayer across different platforms, and 3) porting over our browser-based code into whatever we decide to use for the new platform. All of this is possible, it's just a question of how much time would be required to do it.

Even before we can get to that, however, there are other big priorities. For example the map editor. Yes, I've heard it loud and clear, it's a disaster. Clovis is working on it, and as soon as my other project launches I'll be able to help also. Besides, I think we should at least fix what we have before we start trying to port code over to another platform!

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So there you have it.

For what its worth seperaring scenarios from the standard 3vs3 competetive play elo pool would be beneficial. Reasons stated in my previous thread on the other post:

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

The main thread has really gotten out of hand, so I think I'll use this thread instead to share my thoughts. Here goes...

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1) Fixing scenario cws.

Yes. I don't know why this wasn't done before, or if it was just an oversight. Maybe once I get into the code I'll find some "gotcha" reason why it wasn't done before, but at this point I really can't think of any reason not to do it. Waffel already opened a bug report about this, so it's on my list now.

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2) Playing comp on other maps than eu.

That's up to the community... it's not for me to tell you which maps to use or not use. However I do think the UI for starting a new game and choosing the map is clunky. If we had a better interface where it was easier to choose a map from the full library of maps, and not just the ones in the dropdown, then maybe more people (especially newer players) would try different ones. Anyway it's something I'm thinking about, I don't have any concrete plans for it yet, just an idea.

---

3) Scenario mods

Okay get your popcorn ready for the flame war that's sure to ensue after I say what I'm about to say.

Here's my decision on appointing a "scenario mod": no. We are not going to have "scenario mods" or "competitive mods" here at atWar. We just have mods. Period.

Now let me explain how I arrived at this decision. When I first came on board, immediately I got a lot of messages from people explaining how atWar is divided into different communities, etc. The_Empirezz in particular made an impassioned case for the "scenario community", and among other things expressed his wish to see "scenario mods" appointed. Several names of potential mods were recommended.

At first I took all this very seriously. I tried really hard to find an acceptable scenario mod or mods. Many discussions were had with mod team and others. Without getting into too many specifics or naming names, we just couldn't find an acceptable candidate. Some names were ruled out for good reasons. A couple other names we kept on the back burner because they don't participate enough in the community for us to judge whether they would be good or bad. One person we DID ask if they wanted to be "scenario mod"... turned it down. So at that point we said, "okay, lets just wait and see. Maybe in a few months someone else will pop up on our radar." That's where we left the conversation.

Since then, however, I keep thinking about this whole issue of divided communities. The more I think about it, the more I believe we should be working to REDUCE the divisiveness... not encourage it. The whole idea of "here are some mods for this community" and "here are some other mods for that community" ... would just be encouraging everyone to retreat into their respective corners. I'm not going to do that.

We have a game which can be played and enjoyed in different ways. That's great, we've got something for everyone. The role of moderators is not to "represent" the interests of one type of game play against another. Our mods are here to help ALL atWar players, regardless of the particular way you choose to play the game.

---

4) Puf's point about small little changes and bandages vs something big like a Steam port

I'll tell you a dirty little secret. (Which won't be much of a secret anymore since I'm posting it here in the forums!)

The secret is this: small little changes and bandages is all I've been doing since I started here. Because it's all I have time for at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, I've been trying hard to put time in so people don't lose hope... and I have put a good amount of time in, between talking with people, and making the small changes and fixes here and there. I'm trying to show that progress is beginning to happen, which it is.

However... I have absolutely no time for big stuff right now. And this is 100% because of me. I've been working on a major IRL project which was *supposed* to launch back in November... here we are almost February and it's still not done! (Long story why that is, I won't bore you with it.) Anyway, every waking moment that I'm not here on atWar, I'm working on that project. Whenever I get tired of coding my other project I take a break and see what I can do with atWar.

So anyway, once I get this other project finally done I'll have a lot more time for atWar. Just not right now. (Hope that doesn't disappoint you all too badly... I'm doing the best I can.)

As for Steam... yes I think this is a good idea. It's a big project and would take significant time to accomplish, but I'm totally open to doing it. As I've said before, to do something like that would basically require 1) creating a single-player/offline gameplay option (i.e. playing against the computer/bots), 2) updating our server infrastructure to accommodate multiplayer across different platforms, and 3) porting over our browser-based code into whatever we decide to use for the new platform. All of this is possible, it's just a question of how much time would be required to do it.

Even before we can get to that, however, there are other big priorities. For example the map editor. Yes, I've heard it loud and clear, it's a disaster. Clovis is working on it, and as soon as my other project launches I'll be able to help also. Besides, I think we should at least fix what we have before we start trying to port code over to another platform!

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So there you have it.

Well Dave, how do you cure the decisiveness you speak of when many mods have personal relationships to some of the worst advocates for the elitist attitude the current competative has twards the rest if the community? Who in that post came out to defend the status quo even though it hurts a large majority.

Your point is good and I agree there is not many good candidates from the scenario community. But your current mod team should be held accountable to be impartial to the entire community. They have a obvious affinity to the specific community in question and in many regards show biasness in punishments.

Now even if you could prove that's wrong, which I dont think it is. Iv been here almost 7 years now and iv seen it as a benefit when I was a competitive player, and iv seen it as a curse now. But the point is most of the community does not feel represented whatsoever no matter how many times mod say it's not true. That is a big problem.

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Well Dave, how do you cure the decisiveness you speak of when many mods have personal relationships to some of the worst advocates for the elitist attitude the current competative has twards the rest if the community? Who in that post came out to defend the status quo even though it hurts a large majority.

Your point is good and I agree there is not many good candidates from the scenario community. But your current mod team should be held accountable to be impartial to the entire community. They have a obviously affinity to the specific community in question and in many regards show biasness in punishments.

Now even if you could prove that's wrong, which I dont think it is. Iv been here almost 7 years now and iv seen it as a benefit when I was a competitive player, and iv seen it as a curse now. But the point is most of the community does not feel represented whatsoever no matter how many times mod say it's not true. That is a big problem.

I don't know what may have happened in the past, when I wasn't around. People tell me stories but I can only judge based on what I've seen for myself over the last 2 months. And what I've seen is this -- moderators acting diligently and fairly. Mods take a lot of shit from a lot of people, and yet handle those situations with a lot more patience than I would myself. They are our first line of defense against the trolls who would otherwise take over if they could.... the rest of us should appreciate the mods for their work, not bash them.

Is the mod team held accountable? Yes, of course. If there was ever an issue, you can be sure I would deal with it. But so far there hasn't been anything like that on my watch, and I don't think there's going to be, because we've got a really good team in place.

Just keep in mind, moderators are members of this community too. That means that yes, they are allowed to have their own opinions, and post in the forums. You don't have to agree with them. Mods are free to express their opinions just like anyone else, and it doesn't have anything to do with how they do their job as a mod.

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 06:49

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Well Dave, how do you cure the decisiveness you speak of when many mods have personal relationships to some of the worst advocates for the elitist attitude the current competative has twards the rest if the community? Who in that post came out to defend the status quo even though it hurts a large majority.

Your point is good and I agree there is not many good candidates from the scenario community. But your current mod team should be held accountable to be impartial to the entire community. They have a obviously affinity to the specific community in question and in many regards show biasness in punishments.

Now even if you could prove that's wrong, which I dont think it is. Iv been here almost 7 years now and iv seen it as a benefit when I was a competitive player, and iv seen it as a curse now. But the point is most of the community does not feel represented whatsoever no matter how many times mod say it's not true. That is a big problem.

I don't know what may have happened in the past, when I wasn't around. People tell me stories but I can only judge based on what I've seen for myself over the last 2 months. And what I've seen is this -- moderators acting diligently and fairly. Mods take a lot of shit from a lot of people, and yet handle those situations with a lot more patience than I would myself. They are our first line of defense against the trolls who would otherwise take over if they could.... the rest of us should appreciate the mods for their work, not bash them.

Is the mod team held accountable? Yes, of course. If there was ever an issue, you can be sure I would deal with it. But so far there hasn't been anything like that on my watch, and I don't think there's going to be, because we've got a really good team in place.

Just keep in mind, moderators are members of this community too. That means that yes, they are allowed to have their own opinions, and post in the forums. You don't have to agree with them. Mods are free to express their opinions just like anyone else, and it doesn't have anything to do with how they do their job as a mod.

The problem right now betwen mods and comunity Isn't how the mods are acting. The problem is that in the past a part of the comunity felt insultated and menosprediated by the mods. And they won't stop the complains or flaming the forums unless you let them have the mods they want.

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 06:49

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Well Dave, how do you cure the decisiveness you speak of when many mods have personal relationships to some of the worst advocates for the elitist attitude the current competative has twards the rest if the community? Who in that post came out to defend the status quo even though it hurts a large majority.

Your point is good and I agree there is not many good candidates from the scenario community. But your current mod team should be held accountable to be impartial to the entire community. They have a obviously affinity to the specific community in question and in many regards show biasness in punishments.

Now even if you could prove that's wrong, which I dont think it is. Iv been here almost 7 years now and iv seen it as a benefit when I was a competitive player, and iv seen it as a curse now. But the point is most of the community does not feel represented whatsoever no matter how many times mod say it's not true. That is a big problem.

I don't know what may have happened in the past, when I wasn't around. People tell me stories but I can only judge based on what I've seen for myself over the last 2 months. And what I've seen is this -- moderators acting diligently and fairly. Mods take a lot of shit from a lot of people, and yet handle those situations with a lot more patience than I would myself. They are our first line of defense against the trolls who would otherwise take over if they could.... the rest of us should appreciate the mods for their work, not bash them.

Is the mod team held accountable? Yes, of course. If there was ever an issue, you can be sure I would deal with it. But so far there hasn't been anything like that on my watch, and I don't think there's going to be, because we've got a really good team in place.

Just keep in mind, moderators are members of this community too. That means that yes, they are allowed to have their own opinions, and post in the forums. You don't have to agree with them. Mods are free to express their opinions just like anyone else, and it doesn't have anything to do with how they do their job as a mod.

Hey I'll take your word on it for now. But that won't slide with most people. Amok abandoned the community in 2015, he did a few updates but he stopped engaging with us almost entirely. Even prior to that he was not involved with moderators or who they promoted and corruption was rampant. The reason I bring that up is it's hard to ever trust someone again after they have abused that trust, and while many of those mods are gone a few remain, and the new mods where promoted by those mods. You will have a hard sell to ever make them trust them again after years of that happening.

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 07:06

Hey I'll take your word on it for now. But that won't slide with most people. Amok abandoned the community in 2015, he did a few updates but he stopped engaging with us almost entirely. Even prior to that he was not involved with moderators or who they promoted and corruption was rampant. The reason I bring that up is it's hard to ever trust someone again after they have abused that trust, and while many of those mods are gone a few remain, and the new mods where promoted by those mods. You will have a hard sell to ever make them trust them again after years of that happening.

Dear god Helly, you even managed to derail this thread, and it doesn't even have more than 10 posts yet...

Like Dave, and plenty of others have said before, mods aren't part of one of the communities, sure they might prefer a kind of gameplay from one of the communities, but that has and should not have any influence on their tasks or authorizations.

You guys need to stop dividing this community by saying that we only have ''competitive mods'' and requesting a ''scenario-mod'' with arguments that aren't solid at all, since all mods are capable of doing those ''special tasks'' just fine. And the comments made by njab for instance, like ''not a scenario player, because he played ..% of his games in competitive'' and vice versa are not productive to the subject either, so i'd say to abstain from that.

Imo Puf worded it verry well, all i'd like to add is:

The thing that i've noticed overall is that most of the problems adressed by the scenario community, basically could've been ''fixed'' by simply adressing this in the forums, and if not, atleast to a mod. Such problem as scenarios not being able to be played in clanwars is a problem that should've been adressed a long time ago. Yet this is the first time its getting adressed in the forums, among other things. Which brings me back to the the representation of the scenario community. This may sound blunt, but you guys should be more active on the forums if you want things changed. Since most of you guys probably only communicate with the players (inner circle) from your own community, those problems/bugs/glitches may be common to you, but you gotta understand that aslong as the devs/mods aren't aware of these problems, things won't get changed anytime soon.

You can get a PHD in atwar

People don't understand how good they have it now since they never had to live with Gigglin or VRIL as moderators.

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 07:41

When did I say that? I have literally said the exact opposite.

Also, which way did you conclude scenario players aren't active enough, in forums or in game? I've checked the most of the forum sections. I'd say 3/4 of the posts in Ideas and suggestions, as well as Bug reports, come from custom map and scenario players. The only sections you can see no non-EU players in are Coalition wars for obvious reasons.

As far as I know, all the things I mentioned in my post have been reported and discussed in the past. The point that every single of them was ignored has basically made people, who fought for it, to stop fighting. I don't want to blame it on the current admin, since he's been here for 2 months only. I had some talks with him today and informed him about the situation — the problems and the demands.

I really wish you, among the many others, to stop spreading such misinformation that the only active group on AtWar are competitive players, especially forum-wise. One of the ways to show it not true, was by complete support from the communty in form of upvotes and posts in the discussion. The post is already the most upvoted one on the AtWar, and the only one to have reached 100 upvotes, ever. For 8 years nothing has attracted this much attention. What further proof of activity do you need?

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

Well Dave, how do you cure the decisiveness you speak of when many mods have personal relationships to some of the worst advocates for the elitist attitude the current competative has twards the rest if the community? Who in that post came out to defend the status quo even though it hurts a large majority.

Your point is good and I agree there is not many good candidates from the scenario community. But your current mod team should be held accountable to be impartial to the entire community. They have a obvious affinity to the specific community in question and in many regards show biasness in punishments.

Now even if you could prove that's wrong, which I dont think it is. Iv been here almost 7 years now and iv seen it as a benefit when I was a competitive player, and iv seen it as a curse now. But the point is most of the community does not feel represented whatsoever no matter how many times mod say it's not true. That is a big problem.

If anyone has had issues with anything, mods have always been approachable, at least in my time. There have been some dissenters in the past, but those aren't on the team any more. I feel very confident in saying that the current mod team is the least partial its been in a long time, and I'd encourage you to come to us with any issues. Well.. not your personal drama that is, that gets old REALLY fast (that goes to all you scenario players )

Which reminds me, what sort of problems does the scenario community face in game that is any different than the competitive scene? Its the same game mechanics, just on a different map with much fancier designing. I'm glad that we have people like you, Tunder, and others (sorry if I left any other editors off the top of my memory) who have been extremely helpful in debugging editor and helping new players get acclimated to its multiple bugs. I've noticed the work you all have done, and it's great to see. However, why would we even need a mod in that position? I guess what I'm trying to get at is what could a "scenario mod" do different than any normal mod?

I've supported the concept of a scenario mod in the past and have worked to find an appropriate candidate, and though I personally believe there are a couple out there (others will beg to differ) At this moment I just don't see it as a necessity. Go ahead, call me "corrupt" "power-hungry" and just "wanting-to-maintain-power" or whatever it is you people like to bash us mods about these days, but I would genuinely like to understand what a "scenario" mod could do to benefit society that any normal well-rounded mod couldn't do.

Also about "biasness" (which isn't a word btw you nub), you should know better than anyone that I for one have no bias as I've punished you before, as well as other people i'd consider longtime friends on this game. I feel I can speak for most other mods around here that they all act the same way. YES, there are instances where it has seemed to be a "pErSoNaL bIaS" mute/ban, but in those cases theres always, I mean literally always, a mod who approaches and asks for their logic and rationale behind the decision. Maybe this is something we can do better of as a team and be a little more transparent with everyone, but all are decisions are team decisions comprised of all recently active mods typically within a 2-3 day range.

Sorry for the text blocks, I know its quite a bit.... (sorry!) but those are just some thoughts I've had on the issues brought up, and I thought I'd take the time to see what people think

Wr1tt3n by Guest, 29.01.2019 at 09:31

When did I say that? I have literally said the exact opposite.

Read..

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 07:41

And the comments made by njab for instance, like ''not a scenario player, because he played ..% of his games in competitive'' and vice versa are not productive to the subject either, so i'd say to abstain from that.

Wr1tt3n by Guest, 29.01.2019 at 09:31

Also, which way did you conclude scenario players aren't active enough, in forums or in game? I've checked the most of the forum sections. I'd say 3/4 of the posts in Ideas and suggestions, as well as Bug reports, come from custom map and scenario players. The only sections you can see no non-EU players in are Coalition wars for obvious reasons.

I concluded this by the various comments made in this thread https://atwar-game.com/news/news.php?news_id=229&page=2&message_id= aimed at the fact that the scenario community wasn't included well enough into the strategy debates. If you read the comments made by Empirez, you'd understand my conclusion.
Ofcourse by the time you will check the thread, the comments will be either edited or deleted. Because hey, welcome to AW forums.

Wr1tt3n by Guest, 29.01.2019 at 09:31

As far as I know, all the things I mentioned in my post have been reported and discussed in the past. The point that every single of them was ignored has basically made people, who fought for it, to stop fighting. I don't want to blame it on the current admin, since he's been here for 2 months only. I had some talks with him today and informed him about the situation — the problems and the demands.

I really wish you, among the many others, to stop spreading such misinformation that the only active group on AtWar are competitive players, especially forum-wise. One of the ways to show it was by complete support from the communty in form of upvotes and posts in the discussion. The post is already the most upvoted one on the AtWar, and the only one to have reached 100 upvotes, ever. For 8 years nothing has attracted this much attention. What further proof of activity do you need?

As for upvotes part, all I have to say is, duuuuuuudee..

First of all stop using upvotes as an argument because its really cringe, you're basically just jerking yourself off on the amount of upvotes you received and by the thought of seeing yourself as some sort of ambassadors/speaking tube for the scenario community. It really is desperate to see you mentioning the upvotes every freaking time, not to mention actually being proud of it, when in fact most of these clans, whom upvoted, contain crazy amount of members up to like 200. Like someone already said before me, just looks like you've basically farmed some upvotes by simply contacting random dudes and telling them to upvote. Which, in my experience, and dont take this the wrong way, isn't something that hasn't been done before, by people from the scenario community guess thats the benefit of having a bigger community. Guess thats why I have to quote CC, and say that ''upvotes don't mean anything to me by the time it's from people who only see this the side they want.''. There is legit no value in upvotes when it comes down pointless discussions like these.

Now stop derailing this topic even more, if you want to keep on flaming, do that so in your own thread. Puf made this thread with the sole purpose of coming with conclusions and solutions, and thats what most of us are trying to do here.

Oh and FYI, your thread isn't the first thread to reach 100 upvotes, there are others that done it before, and will do so later, so I wouldn't frame it if i were you.

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 07:41

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 07:06

Hey I'll take your word on it for now. But that won't slide with most people. Amok abandoned the community in 2015, he did a few updates but he stopped engaging with us almost entirely. Even prior to that he was not involved with moderators or who they promoted and corruption was rampant. The reason I bring that up is it's hard to ever trust someone again after they have abused that trust, and while many of those mods are gone a few remain, and the new mods where promoted by those mods. You will have a hard sell to ever make them trust them again after years of that happening.

The thing that i've noticed overall is that most of the problems adressed by the scenario community, basically could've been ''fixed'' by simply adressing this in the forums, and if not, atleast to a mod. Such problem as scenarios not being able to be played in clanwars is a problem that should've been adressed a long time ago. Yet this is the first time its getting adressed in the forums, among other things. Which brings me back to the the representation of the scenario community. This may sound blunt, but you guys should be more active on the forums if you want things changed. Since most of you guys probably only communicate with the players (inner circle) from your own community, those problems/bugs/glitches may be common to you, but you gotta understand that aslong as the devs/mods aren't aware of these problems, things won't get changed anytime soon.

I'd like to add to this, I agree but i'd say this:

You don't have to necessarily be more active in forums, as long as you are at least repoting issues to mods. Yea forums help since theres a little more organization and there can be communal discussion, but I will say I never ignore a report PM if its well put together, so messaging mods doesnt hurt either

ok i swear im done spamming... D

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:24

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

Well Dave, how do you cure the decisiveness you speak of when many mods have personal relationships to some of the worst advocates for the elitist attitude the current competative has twards the rest if the community? Who in that post came out to defend the status quo even though it hurts a large majority.

Your point is good and I agree there is not many good candidates from the scenario community. But your current mod team should be held accountable to be impartial to the entire community. They have a obvious affinity to the specific community in question and in many regards show biasness in punishments.

Now even if you could prove that's wrong, which I dont think it is. Iv been here almost 7 years now and iv seen it as a benefit when I was a competitive player, and iv seen it as a curse now. But the point is most of the community does not feel represented whatsoever no matter how many times mod say it's not true. That is a big problem.

If anyone has had issues with anything, mods have always been approachable, at least in my time. There have been some dissenters in the past, but those aren't on the team any more. I feel very confident in saying that the current mod team is the least partial its been in a long time, and I'd encourage you to come to us with any issues. Well.. not your personal drama that is, that gets old REALLY fast (that goes to all you scenario players )

Which reminds me, what sort of problems does the scenario community face in game that is any different than the competitive scene? Its the same game mechanics, just on a different map with much fancier designing. I'm glad that we have people like you, Tunder, and others (sorry if I left any other editors off the top of my memory) who have been extremely helpful in debugging editor and helping new players get acclimated to its multiple bugs. I've noticed the work you all have done, and it's great to see. However, why would we even need a mod in that position? I guess what I'm trying to get at is what could a "scenario mod" do different than any normal mod?

I've supported the concept of a scenario mod in the past and have worked to find an appropriate candidate, and though I personally believe there are a couple out there (others will beg to differ) At this moment I just don't see it as a necessity. Go ahead, call me "corrupt" "power-hungry" and just "wanting-to-maintain-power" or whatever it is you people like to bash us mods about these days, but I would genuinely like to understand what a "scenario" mod could do to benefit society that any normal well-rounded mod couldn't do.

Also about "biasness" (which isn't a word btw you nub), you should know better than anyone that I for one have no bias as I've punished you before, as well as other people i'd consider longtime friends on this game. I feel I can speak for most other mods around here that they all act the same way. YES, there are instances where it has seemed to be a "pErSoNaL bIaS" mute/ban, but in those cases theres always, I mean literally always, a mod who approaches and asks for their logic and rationale behind the decision. Maybe this is something we can do better of as a team and be a little more transparent with everyone, but all are decisions are team decisions comprised of all recently active mods typically within a 2-3 day range.
Sorry for the text blocks, I know its quite a bit.... (sorry!) but those are just some thoughts I've had on the issues brought up, and I thought I'd take the time to see what people think

"All you scenario players"
Like what the hell is that dude? Waffel wasn't apart of it? How about witch doctor or 4nic? Like dude you showed your bias in 5 seconds saying your not bias like come on I cant make this shit up lol.

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 10:29

How did I even flame? I am pointing out you're wrong in the basic assumption you've made. Scenario players aren't inactive on forums. Period.

About the strategy change thread. Please tell me where has it been discussed previous to the change? I don't remember any such discussion, besides some rants of players for LB being too OP. If there even was one, it definitely was speaking only of the strategy's use on EU+. You can easily get a few good reasons from top of your head why somebody who isn't playing the map would ignore the thread completely.

Okay, I am jerking off to the upvotes now? I have seen it mentioned this or that way in my post too many times already. Some people feel alienated and neglected, you know? So if you and the others stopped viewing their support as useless or inferior, maybe they'd feel better. And maybe we could finally work on the game, instead of having it stuck in 2012. Also, if it is that easy to farm 100 upvotes, why has nobody done it in the previous years?

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:42

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:24

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

"All you scenario players"
Like what the hell is that dude? Waffel wasn't apart of it? How about witch doctor or 4nic? Like dude you showed biasness in 5 seconds of your not bias like come on I cant make this shit up lol.

yea wut.. i was merely referring to people who play scenarios routinely? Didn't know we were getting PC all of a sudden. What's the new word I should use instead then?

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:44

yea wut.. i was merely referring to people who play scenarios routinely? Didn't know we were getting PC all of a sudden. What's the new word I should use instead then?

Yeah when they run out of arguments, they either start nitpicking or mention their amount of upvotes.

Its like dickmeasuring all over.

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:44

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:42

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:24

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

"All you scenario players"
Like what the hell is that dude? Waffel wasn't apart of it? How about witch doctor or 4nic? Like dude you showed biasness in 5 seconds of your not bias like come on I cant make this shit up lol.

yea wut.. i was merely referring to people who play scenarios routinely? Didn't know we were getting PC all of a sudden. What's the new word I should use instead then?

The fact that you named a specific community being drama queens when infact the biggest drama queen come from competitive and have ruined two discussions now because they cant fathom people thinking differently then them.

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:48

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:44

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:42

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:24

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

"All you scenario players"
Like what the hell is that dude? Waffel wasn't apart of it? How about witch doctor or 4nic? Like dude you showed biasness in 5 seconds of your not bias like come on I cant make this shit up lol.

yea wut.. i was merely referring to people who play scenarios routinely? Didn't know we were getting PC all of a sudden. What's the new word I should use instead then?

The fact that you named a specific community being drama queens when infact the biggest drama queen come from competitive and have ruined two discussions now because they cant fathom people thinking differently then them.

You've gone beyond making sense now. Here I was trying to have logical discussion and you've completely disregarded reason. Please go re-read my thread cos I'd love to have an educational discussion here, which was the original intent of my message (which if you had read it you'd understand). I'm not going to respond to any further posts that are derailing from the original point of my message

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:48

The fact that you named a specific community being drama queens when infact the biggest drama queen come from competitive and have ruined two discussions now because they cant fathom people thinking differently then them.

Thought you defined yourself as ''scenario player''

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:44

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:42

Wr1tt3n by Sultan of Swing, 29.01.2019 at 10:24

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 06:02

Wr1tt3n by Dave, 29.01.2019 at 04:11

"All you scenario players"
Like what the hell is that dude? Waffel wasn't apart of it? How about witch doctor or 4nic? Like dude you showed biasness in 5 seconds of your not bias like come on I cant make this shit up lol.

yea wut.. i was merely referring to people who play scenarios routinely? Didn't know we were getting PC all of a sudden. What's the new word I should use instead then?

"Well.. not your personal drama that is, that gets old REALLY fast (that goes to all you scenario players )"

So waffles dramas ok? Witch doctor, froyer, boy wind, and company ok? Just us scenario players are an issue lol

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 07:41

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 07:06

Hey I'll take your word on it for now. But that won't slide with most people. Amok abandoned the community in 2015, he did a few updates but he stopped engaging with us almost entirely. Even prior to that he was not involved with moderators or who they promoted and corruption was rampant. The reason I bring that up is it's hard to ever trust someone again after they have abused that trust, and while many of those mods are gone a few remain, and the new mods where promoted by those mods. You will have a hard sell to ever make them trust them again after years of that happening.

Dear god Helly, you even managed to derail this thread, and it doesn't even have more than 10 posts yet...

Like Dave, and plenty of others have said before, mods aren't part of one of the communities, sure they might prefer a kind of gameplay from one of the communities, but that has and should not have any influence on their tasks or authorizations.

You guys need to stop dividing this community by saying that we only have ''competitive mods'' and requesting a ''scenario-mod'' with arguments that aren't solid at all, since all mods are capable of doing those ''special tasks'' just fine. And the comments made by njab for instance, like ''not a scenario player, because he played ..% of his games in competitive'' and vice versa are not productive to the subject either, so i'd say to abstain from that.

Imo Puf worded it verry well, all i'd like to add is:

The thing that i've noticed overall is that most of the problems adressed by the scenario community, basically could've been ''fixed'' by simply adressing this in the forums, and if not, atleast to a mod. Such problem as scenarios not being able to be played in clanwars is a problem that should've been adressed a long time ago. Yet this is the first time its getting adressed in the forums, among other things. Which brings me back to the the representation of the scenario community. This may sound blunt, but you guys should be more active on the forums if you want things changed. Since most of you guys probably only communicate with the players (inner circle) from your own community, those problems/bugs/glitches may be common to you, but you gotta understand that aslong as the devs/mods aren't aware of these problems, things won't get changed anytime soon.

Not to derail or anything but your last paragraph and second is such a contradiction...

I mean u say all mods are capable of doing those special tasks, then in your last paragraph u say the problems of the scen community is not communicated well....
'' maybe its cuz there isnt a scenario mod who plays those maps and is active within that community and talks a lot with those players and has insight etc?

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 10:29

Wr1tt3n by Guest, 29.01.2019 at 09:31

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 07:41

Wr1tt3n by Guest, 29.01.2019 at 09:31

Wr1tt3n by Guest, 29.01.2019 at 09:31

First of all stop using upvotes as an argument because its really cringe, you're basically just jerking yourself off on the amount of upvotes you received and by the thought of seeing yourself as some sort of ambassadors/speaking tube for the scenario community. It really is desperate to see you mentioning the upvotes every freaking time, not to mention actually being proud of it, when in fact most of these clans, whom upvoted, contain crazy amount of members up to like 200. Like someone already said before me, just looks like you've basically farmed some upvotes by simply contacting random dudes and telling them to upvote. Which, in my experience, and dont take this the wrong way, isn't something that hasn't been done before, by people from the scenario community guess thats the benefit of having a bigger community. Guess thats why I have to quote CC, and say that ''upvotes don't mean anything to me by the time it's from people who only see this the side they want.''. There is legit no value in upvotes when it comes down pointless discussions like these.

Now stop derailing this topic even more, if you want to keep on flaming, do that so in your own thread. Puf made this thread with the sole purpose of coming with conclusions, and thats what most of us are trying to do here.

Oh and FYI, your thread isn't the first thread to reach 100 upvotes, there are others that done it before, and will do so later, so I wouldn't frame it if i were you.

Waffel, in my humble opinion, i think most of the players, like myself, before upvoting the post, have read the post as i would do for anything i vote for. Do not think any of these players would just give away their support without critical thinking, the players who visit the forum are active players, who in my mind read most posts. You can see that by looking at who reads an topic.

Also i have looked in the general discussion yesterday. All 50-60+ pages, and no there hasnt been any post with more votes. The most voted post in general discussion has been from mauzer about '' the first atwar strike'' until njab post.

Wr1tt3n by ITSGG1122, 29.01.2019 at 11:06

Not to derail or anything..

Take notes Helly...

Wr1tt3n by ITSGG1122, 29.01.2019 at 11:06

.... but your last paragraph and second is such a contradiction.

I mean u say all mods are capable of doing those special tasks, then in your last paragraph u say the problems of the scen community is not communicated well....
'' maybe its cuz there isnt a scenario mod who plays those maps and is active within that community and talks a lot with those players and has insight etc?

By this logic, you basically mean that when everytime a subject is not being communicated it needs a mod with the concerned expertise to handle it? Do you realise how inefficient that is? Especially when all it takes is 1 single PR or PM to a mod/admin to fix the issue.

In the other thread I basically mentioned your, according to the well respected players from your community, key reasons for a scenario mod and basically invalidated them one by one, and none of you even responded to it. In that case i'd say silence is consent.

Though what I dont get is that you guys basically describe a scenario mod as a 'popular, well liked, active player that associates with you guys and has 'insight'?
Sounds to me that you guys just want a moderator for the sole reason, that you guys just do not have one. Since apparently he doesn't need any specific requirement whatsoever. The irony in this however, is that from the start of this discussion you guys called us elites, superior, egocentric etc. etc., yet when you put your cards on the table it shows that you guys just want the exact same thing, with your own scenario moderator as the cherry on top of it.

Can a mod please remove all these irrelevant and pointless comments above where everyone is dick measuring?

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 11:42

Wr1tt3n by ITSGG1122, 29.01.2019 at 11:06

Wr1tt3n by ITSGG1122, 29.01.2019 at 11:06

By this logic, you basically mean that when everytime a subject is not being communicated it needs a mod with the concerned expertise to handle it? Do you realise how inefficient that is? Especially when all it takes is 1 single PR or PM to a mod/admin to fix the issue.

In the other thread I basically mentioned your, according to the well respected players from your community, key reasons for a scenario mod and basically invalidated them one by one, and none of you even responded to it. In that case i'd say silence is consent.

Though what I dont get is that you guys basically describe a scenario mod as a 'popular, well liked, active player that associates with you guys and has 'insight'?
Sounds to me that you guys just want a moderator for the sole reason, that you guys just do not have one. Since apparently he doesn't need any specific requirement whatsoever. The irony in this however, is that from the start of this discussion you guys called us elites, superior, egocentric etc. etc., yet when you put your cards on the table it shows that you guys just want the exact same thing, with your own scenario moderator as the cherry on top of it.

You have said that in the past these issues were not communicated well. I have provided you reason for why this did not happen. We can disagree on the reason, but that is my opinion.
If one of the current mods, play the most played/ most popular maps such as ww1 on a monthly basis. He or she would instantly have insights on issues and 100% have known the problem regarding ghosting.

And no i dont want a scenario mod, i have never said that i would like a scenario mod. I have only pointed out and gave reasonings and answers to some of the issues u have questioned.

-edit
(wait, can you pinpoint to me in a ss where exactly i have been silence in a discussion between you and i? In that case, i must have forgotten to answer and would surely like to respond nevertheless. I will put some effort and read back all your comments regarding this and find out where exactly u invalidated my 'key reasons'.)

Damn guys, constructive comments only please. I'm almost out of popcorn to eat here.

Wr1tt3n by Waffel, 29.01.2019 at 10:50

Wr1tt3n by Helly, 29.01.2019 at 10:48

The fact that you named a specific community being drama queens when infact the biggest drama queen come from competitive and have ruined two discussions now because they cant fathom people thinking differently then them.

Thought you defined yourself as ''scenario player''

I'm nothing right now except a map maker. Perhaps someday I'll play CWs again perhaps not who knows I play every thing I feel like.

Gigi you make zero sense bro...